Hello,
I have spotted some mistakes in the fr_FR file of the glibc so we have talked about that problem[1] on traduc.org[2] mailing list.
The use of 'avril' isn't conventional to abbreviate 'avril' but we've chosen to use it because the full word is only 5 characters length and the usual abbreviation is 4.
We have fixed the following translations:
1 - abmon: jan -> janv. fév -> févr. mar -> mars avr -> avril mai -> mai jui -> juin jul -> juil. aoû -> août sep -> sept. oct -> oct. nov -> nov. déc -> déc.
2 - adday: dim -> dim. lun -> lun. mar -> mar. mer -> mer. jeu -> jeu. ven -> ven. sam -> sam.
References: - article 'Typographie : date, heure, adresse, téléphone, mail' of Jacques Poitou, of the university Lumière Lyon-2, indicate the same abreviations of months (except the one for 'avril' ('avr.'))
- 'Ramat de la Typographie' (2002, ISBN2-922366-01-4) use the same abbreviations except for 'avril' => 'avr.' and 'juillet' => 'juill.'.
- The 'Office québécois' of the french language advocates 'juill.' instead of 'juil.' http://66.46.185.79/bdl/gabarit_bdl.asp?Th=2&t1=&id=3619&D=Abr%E... http://66.46.185.79/bdl/gabarit_bdl.asp?Th=2&t1=&id=3617&D=Abr%E...
- Wikipedia (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mois) advocates 'juil.' or 'juill' for 'juillet'.
- the article DATE of posthumous document « Orthotypographie, dictionnaire raisonné » of Jean-Pierre Lacroux advocates the same abbreviations : http://listetypo.free.fr/JPL/Orthotypo-Lacroux.pdf
3 - d_fmt: in French, the separator is not a dot but a slash!
References: - Wikipedia: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dates - The article « Typographie : date, heure, adresse, téléphone, mail » of Jacques Poitou : http://perso.univ-lyon2.fr/~poitou/Typo/t05a.html
4 - the document n972-14652ft.pdf explains the meaning of grouping in LC_NUMERIC and I in French we must use 'grouping 3' and not the useless current 'grouping 0;0' (tested with printf("%'d", 2000000) => 2 000 000).
References : - « Tout sur les unités de mesure » of Thierry Thomasset, Université technologique of Compiègne : http://www.utc.fr/~tthomass/Themes/Unites/typographie/Typo.pdf - lesson of maths for physics and chemistry of the 'Université en ligne' : http://www.uel.education.fr/consultation/reference/physique/outils_nancy/app...
Regards, Stéphane
[1] http://www.traduc.org/pipermail/traduc/2008-January/005362.html [2] http://traduc.org, french translation of Open Source projects (glossary, tools, desktop, man-pages, howto, etc).
Afficher les réponses par date
Hi
I would advocate against the abmon having different length of the abbreviations.
I would also like the contact address to be ratained, as I am the original contributor of the spec.
Furthermore there are some of the fields that are not according to 14652, eg language and territory should be ISO 639 and ISO 3166 conformant.
The rest of the changes seem OK, if that is what you would like.
best regards keld
On Sat, Mar 15, 2008 at 01:32:40PM +0100, Stéphane Raimbault wrote:
Hello,
I have spotted some mistakes in the fr_FR file of the glibc so we have talked about that problem[1] on traduc.org[2] mailing list.
The use of 'avril' isn't conventional to abbreviate 'avril' but we've chosen to use it because the full word is only 5 characters length and the usual abbreviation is 4.
We have fixed the following translations:
1 - abmon: jan -> janv. fév -> févr. mar -> mars avr -> avril mai -> mai jui -> juin jul -> juil. aoû -> août sep -> sept. oct -> oct. nov -> nov. déc -> déc.
2 - adday: dim -> dim. lun -> lun. mar -> mar. mer -> mer. jeu -> jeu. ven -> ven. sam -> sam.
References:
- article 'Typographie : date, heure, adresse, téléphone, mail' of
Jacques Poitou, of the university Lumière Lyon-2, indicate the same abreviations of months (except the one for 'avril' ('avr.'))
- 'Ramat de la Typographie' (2002, ISBN2-922366-01-4) use the same
abbreviations except for 'avril' => 'avr.' and 'juillet' => 'juill.'.
- The 'Office québécois' of the french language advocates 'juill.'
instead of 'juil.' http://66.46.185.79/bdl/gabarit_bdl.asp?Th=2&t1=&id=3619&D=Abr%E... http://66.46.185.79/bdl/gabarit_bdl.asp?Th=2&t1=&id=3617&D=Abr%E...
- Wikipedia (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mois) advocates 'juil.' or
'juill' for 'juillet'.
- the article DATE of posthumous document « Orthotypographie, dictionnaire
raisonné » of Jean-Pierre Lacroux advocates the same abbreviations : http://listetypo.free.fr/JPL/Orthotypo-Lacroux.pdf
3 - d_fmt: in French, the separator is not a dot but a slash!
References:
- Wikipedia: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dates
- The article « Typographie : date, heure, adresse, téléphone, mail » of
Jacques Poitou : http://perso.univ-lyon2.fr/~poitou/Typo/t05a.html
4 - the document n972-14652ft.pdf explains the meaning of grouping in LC_NUMERIC and I in French we must use 'grouping 3' and not the useless current 'grouping 0;0' (tested with printf("%'d", 2000000) => 2 000 000).
References :
- « Tout sur les unités de mesure » of Thierry Thomasset, Université
technologique of Compiègne : http://www.utc.fr/~tthomass/Themes/Unites/typographie/Typo.pdf
- lesson of maths for physics and chemistry of the 'Université en
ligne' : http://www.uel.education.fr/consultation/reference/physique/outils_nancy/app...
Regards, Stéphane
[1] http://www.traduc.org/pipermail/traduc/2008-January/005362.html [2] http://traduc.org, french translation of Open Source projects (glossary, tools, desktop, man-pages, howto, etc).
Index: fr_FR
RCS file: /cvs/glibc/libc/localedata/locales/fr_FR,v retrieving revision 1.14 diff -u -r1.14 fr_FR --- fr_FR 9 Oct 2007 22:20:33 -0000 1.14 +++ fr_FR 15 Mar 2008 12:28:48 -0000 @@ -3,33 +3,35 @@ % % French Language Locale for France % Source: RAP -% Address: Sankt Jo//rgens Alle 8 -% DK-1615 Ko//benhavn V, Danmark -% Contact: Keld Simonsen -% Email: Keld.Simonsen@dkuug.dk -% Tel: +45 - 31226543 -% Fax: +45 - 33256543 % Language: fr +% Contact: Traduc.org +% Address: 18, rue Cavendish +% 75019 Paris +% Email: traduc@traduc.org % Territory: FR -% Revision: 4.3 -% Date: 1996-10-15 +% Revision: 4.4 +% Date: 2008-03-02 % Users: general % Charset: ISO-8859-1 +% Authors: +% 2000-06-28, keld.simonsen@dkuug.dk +% 2008-03-02, stephane.raimbault@gmail.com +% % Distribution and use is free, also % for commercial purposes.
LC_IDENTIFICATION title "French locale for France" source "RAP" -address "Sankt J<U00F8>rgens Alle 8, DK-1615 K<U00F8>benhavn V, Danmark" -contact "Keld Simonsen" +address "" +contact "Traduc.org" email "bug-glibc-locales@gnu.org" tel "" fax "" language "French" territory "France" revision "1.0" -date "2000-06-28" +date "2008-03-15" % category "fr_FR:2000";LC_IDENTIFICATION category "fr_FR:2000";LC_CTYPE @@ -72,7 +74,7 @@ currency_symbol "<U20AC>" mon_decimal_point "<U002C>" mon_thousands_sep "<U0020>" -mon_grouping 3;3 +mon_grouping 3 positive_sign "" negative_sign "<U002D>" int_frac_digits 2 @@ -88,14 +90,17 @@ LC_NUMERIC decimal_point "<U002C>" thousands_sep "<U0020>" -grouping 0;0 +grouping 3 END LC_NUMERIC
LC_TIME -abday "<U0064><U0069><U006D>";"<U006C><U0075><U006E>";/
"<U006D><U0061><U0072>";"<U006D><U0065><U0072>";/"<U006A><U0065><U0075>";"<U0076><U0065><U006E>";/"<U0073><U0061><U006D>"+abday "<U0064><U0069><U006D><U002E>";/
"<U006C><U0075><U006E><U002E>";/"<U006D><U0061><U0072><U002E>";/"<U006D><U0065><U0072><U002E>";/"<U006A><U0065><U0075><U002E>";/"<U0076><U0065><U006E><U002E>";/"<U0073><U0061><U006D><U002E>"day "<U0064><U0069><U006D><U0061><U006E><U0063><U0068><U0065>";/ "<U006C><U0075><U006E><U0064><U0069>";/ "<U006D><U0061><U0072><U0064><U0069>";/ @@ -103,12 +108,18 @@ "<U006A><U0065><U0075><U0064><U0069>";/ "<U0076><U0065><U006E><U0064><U0072><U0065><U0064><U0069>";/ "<U0073><U0061><U006D><U0065><U0064><U0069>" -abmon "<U006A><U0061><U006E>";"<U0066><U00E9><U0076>";/
"<U006D><U0061><U0072>";"<U0061><U0076><U0072>";/"<U006D><U0061><U0069>";"<U006A><U0075><U006E>";/"<U006A><U0075><U0069>";"<U0061><U006F><U00FB>";/"<U0073><U0065><U0070>";"<U006F><U0063><U0074>";/"<U006E><U006F><U0076>";"<U0064><U00E9><U0063>"+abmon "<U006A><U0061><U006E><U0076><U002E>";/
"<U0066><U00E9><U0076><U0072><U002E>";/"<U006D><U0061><U0072><U0073>";/"<U0061><U0076><U0072><U0069><U006C>";/"<U006D><U0061><U0069>";/"<U006A><U0075><U0069><U006E>";/"<U006A><U0075><U0069><U006C><U002E>";/"<U0061><U006F><U00FB><U0074>";/"<U0073><U0065><U0070><U0074><U002E>";/"<U006F><U0063><U0074><U002E>";/"<U006E><U006F><U0076><U002E>";/"<U0064><U00E9><U0063><U002E>"mon "<U006A><U0061><U006E><U0076><U0069><U0065><U0072>";/ "<U0066><U00E9><U0076><U0072><U0069><U0065><U0072>";/ "<U006D><U0061><U0072><U0073>";/ @@ -122,7 +133,7 @@ "<U006E><U006F><U0076><U0065><U006D><U0062><U0072><U0065>";/ "<U0064><U00E9><U0063><U0065><U006D><U0062><U0072><U0065>" d_t_fmt "<U0025><U0061><U0020><U0025><U0064><U0020><U0025><U0062><U0020><U0025><U0059><U0020><U0025><U0054><U0020><U0025><U005A>" -d_fmt "<U0025><U0064><U002E><U0025><U006D><U002E><U0025><U0059>" +d_fmt "<U0025><U0064><U002F><U0025><U006D><U002F><U0025><U0059>" t_fmt "<U0025><U0054>" am_pm "";"" t_fmt_ampm ""
2008/3/16, Keld Jørn Simonsen keld@dkuug.dk:
Hi
I would advocate against the abmon having different length of the abbreviations.
I don't understand, can you explain your objection? I received bug reports about the current ones so I made this patch to fix these abbreviations (abmon).
I would also like the contact address to be ratained, as I am the original contributor of the spec.
Yes, if you want, and you can also remove my email address. However, you don't represent a French group and I sent to you some emails on Feb 19 and Feb 29, and I didn't receive any useful reply or comments so I don't think your are the right contact. Do you have someone else to suggest?
Furthermore there are some of the fields that are not according to 14652, eg language and territory should be ISO 639 and ISO 3166 conformant.
As you can see in the diff, I didn't modify these fields, can you indicate the required changes?
The rest of the changes seem OK, if that is what you would like.
Fine but the changes aren't personal choices, I don't define the conventions only the use of "avril" abbreviation is more arguable.
Regards, Stéphane
On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 10:16:34PM +0100, Stéphane Raimbault wrote:
2008/3/16, Keld Jørn Simonsen keld@dkuug.dk:
Hi
I would advocate against the abmon having different length of the abbreviations.
I don't understand, can you explain your objection? I received bug reports about the current ones so I made this patch to fix these abbreviations (abmon).
The abbriviated day and month names are used many places for system administration, such as in flie lists (ls) and many log files. Using names with different lengths would be quite disturbing for reading such links. Also using periods here would be quite strange.
Maybe we would need two kinds of abbreviated names, one for system use, and one for more documebt GUI use.
I would also like the contact address to be ratained, as I am the original contributor of the spec.
Yes, if you want, and you can also remove my email address. However, you don't represent a French group and I sent to you some emails on Feb 19 and Feb 29, and I didn't receive any useful reply or comments so I don't think your are the right contact. Do you have someone else to suggest?
Hmm, I did not really get very useful information and explanations from you either. If you had sent me a mail explaining the changes you as a group wanted, just like you sent to this list, then our communication could have started on a better foot. As far as I remember it you just asked me to look thru all your discussion on your mail list for documentation of the proposed changes. This was even in French, but fortunately I can read french to some extent.
Stll I am prepared to work with you. I am also the editor of 14652 and I have done work for a number of other locales, so I have a good knowledge of the overall system.
Furthermore there are some of the fields that are not according to 14652, eg language and territory should be ISO 639 and ISO 3166 conformant.
As you can see in the diff, I didn't modify these fields, can you indicate the required changes?
Yes, I will look at it, and also see where they came from.
The rest of the changes seem OK, if that is what you would like.
Fine but the changes aren't personal choices, I don't define the conventions only the use of "avril" abbreviation is more arguable.
I meant "you" in the plural sense ("vous" en français)
Best regards keld
2008/3/21, Keld Jørn Simonsen keld@dkuug.dk:
On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 10:16:34PM +0100, Stéphane Raimbault wrote:
2008/3/16, Keld Jørn Simonsen keld@dkuug.dk:
Hi
I would advocate against the abmon having different length of the abbreviations.
I don't understand, can you explain your objection? I received bug reports about the current ones so I made this patch to fix these abbreviations (abmon).
The abbriviated day and month names are used many places for system administration, such as in flie lists (ls) and many log files. Using names with different lengths would be quite disturbing for reading such links. Also using periods here would be quite strange.
ls -l use ISO date 2008-03-21 by default, ls -l --time-style=locale can be use to show abbmon in your locale but I don't think it's frequently used and the alignment shift of one char isn't really annoying.
My Linux distributions are configured to use French and I use the new French translation of the glibc for 2 months. I have many logs on my current system for Apache, Xorg, postfix, PostgreSQL, gdm, MySQL, proftpd, etc, all these logs are in English except one, PostgreSQL 8.3, but the date use the ISO format.
You said "many log files" which one? If yes, what's the problem? If required, many programming languages provides function like rjust() in Python to resolve alignements problems[1].
Maybe we would need two kinds of abbreviated names, one for system use, and one for more documebt GUI use.
Do you want to add yet another conversion specification to strftime which breaks your application on previous glibc releases? It's already difficult to translate the glibc and many developpers don't know how to localize, so don't add some difficulty, please!
Hmm, I did not really get very useful information and explanations from you either. If you had sent me a mail explaining the changes you as a group wanted, just like you sent to this list, then our communication could have started on a better foot. As far as I remember it you just asked me to look thru all your discussion on your mail list for documentation of the proposed changes. This was even in French, but fortunately I can read french to some extent.
It's a bit strange for a French contact, isn't it? I thought you spoke French when I got in touch with you. Why did you say me you don't understand the talks? Like previously said, you can remove the email of Traduc.org project in fr_FR but please, add a French contact too because French people speaks French!
Furthermore there are some of the fields that are not according to 14652, eg language and territory should be ISO 639 and ISO 3166 conformant.
As you can see in the diff, I didn't modify these fields, can you indicate the required changes?
Yes, I will look at it, and also see where they came from.
Can you send me the changes to update the file, please?
Stéphane
[1] a loop to know the max size of abbmon is required.
-
Keld Jørn Simonsen -
Stéphane Raimbault